高清福利片

What if the cure聽everyone鈥檚聽waiting for already exists 鈥� but patients聽can鈥檛聽access it?

With聽AI transforming medicine,听breakthroughs are no longer science聽fiction.聽They鈥檙e聽happening now.聽But innovation alone聽isn鈥檛聽enough.聽So how do discoveries escape the lab聽to聽reach patients?聽

Leading researchers聽Michael Bowen,听Victoria Cogger听补苍诲听Chenyu Tim Wang聽share their medical moonshots in聽novel therapeutics听补苍诲听nanomedicines, and聽how聽they鈥檙e聽expediting聽the process from聽discovery to delivery.

惭补谤办听厂肠辞迟迟听听00:00

This podcast is recorded at the University of Sydney's Camperdown campus on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation.聽They've聽been discovering and sharing knowledge here for 10s of 1000s of years. I pay my respects to elders past and聽present, and聽extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听00:29

We have invested tens of millions of dollars into research and development, and we have taken an interesting tool compound into phase two clinical trials for treating agitation and aggression in dementia.聽

惭补谤办听厂肠辞迟迟听听00:42

That's聽Michael Bowen, the co-founder and Chief Scientific Officer of聽Kinoxis聽Therapeutics. In the last few decades, massive strides in technology have catapulted us into a new era of medical treatments, from nano medicines to gene editing and brain imaging. And now artificial intelligence is super charging these advancements. But breakthroughs聽don't聽save lives unless they make it out of the lab.聽That's聽why researchers are taking medical moonshots: bold,听high-risk聽pushes to tackle problems once thought impossible. Could this help us fast track cures for disease, especially as cancer, metabolic disease and climate-related health threats continue to rise? This is The Solutionists.聽I'm聽Mark Scott. This recording was done at a live public talks event presented by Sydney ideas, the University of Sydney's flagship public talks program. ABC Health and Science journalist Tegan Taylor explores these questions with Biomedical Research Leader Victoria Cogger, neuroimaging scientist and engineer, Chenyu Tim Wang, and neuroscientist and psychopharmacologist Michael Bowen. Here's Michael on how his research began.

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听02:16

My journey really goes聽back聽nearly 15聽years聽actually.聽I was working in Professor Ian McGregor's lab at the time, and through a collaboration with some colleagues in the School of Chemistry, we discovered this really interesting small molecule that's now known as KNX100 that was able to increase preference for social interaction in聽pre-clinical聽models, and modulating social systems in the brain was something that we were really interested in.聽Anyway, we continued to work on this compound with what funding we could secure for several years, but it got to a point where it was clear that if we wanted it to be anything more than just a聽tool聽compound, something interesting for scientific examination, that it was going to need a vehicle outside of the usual NHMRC聽ARC聽funding avenues. At the end of 2014,听I was fortunate enough to be awarded a National Health and Medical Research Council Fellowship, which essentially gave me five years to go all in on this and see if we could get this to a point where it could have a real shot at translating and having impact in the real world. We had a lot of ground to cover.聽We had no idea how this compound worked. We聽didn't聽know what therapeutic application was going to be best to take it forward聽in,听we聽hadn't聽characterised聽the safety, the pharmacokinetics,听all of聽these things.聽For several years聽it聽felt like pushing聽a giant boulder uphill, and then in 2016 we were able to get聽Uniseed, the university-backed venture fund on board as our cornerstone investor. Pretty rapidly after that, we secured a number of really important early investors, and we were able to聽found聽Konoxis聽Therapeutics. Now, since founding聽Konoxis聽Therapeutics seven years ago, to give you an idea of the rapid pace at which the program's developed, we have taken KNX100 from an interesting tool compound into phase two clinical trials, and we actually launched this month, our phase two clinical trial for treating agitation and aggression in dementia. This has been a聽huge team聽effort. We have over that聽period of time, we聽invested聽tens聽of millions of dollars into research and development, and we have had聽really important聽research collaborations and partnerships that have spanned聽4聽continents and 12 countries, so聽it's聽really a team sport.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听04:25

So聽when did you know that this was the one to go all in on? How did you know what was going to happen in a human and what kind of humans to focus on?聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听04:36

Yeah, you聽don't聽really, but you聽have to聽take a risk at some point.聽But I guess at that point聽I'd聽been working on it,听I was working on a number of different compounds, a number of different systems, and there was something special about this compound, the way that it was working.聽I'm聽a big believer that good science is about trying as hard as you can to show that whatever you think is happening is not what's聽happening, and聽then giving it to other people and getting them to try and do the same. We聽spent years trying to do this, and we continue to try and do this, and every time we try and refute what we think is going on, it just gets聽better and better.聽

Tegan Taylor聽聽05:07

Vic, tell us your story.聽

Victoria Cogger聽聽05:09

So聽I came to聽developing聽nano medicines from quite a different angle. I work at Concord Hospital, which is, as many of you may know, an old Department of Veteran Affairs hospital.聽So聽we have a lot of older people at Concord. We see firsthand the people that take the drugs or the medications, which are the older people, but medications are not tested in older people.聽They're actually tested in young聽people.,听and then we try and treat the diseases of older people using treatments for young people.聽So聽there's聽this big disconnect in the way drugs are developed to treat the diseases of aging, and so we were聽observing聽all these adverse drug reactions that are incredibly debilitating to our older people. We started to ask ourselves, why are older people so adversely affected by the drugs that are聽actually meant聽to be helping them?聽So聽we started to play around.聽I'm聽a liver physiologist by training, and聽I started to look at the liver, and started to see some changes in the way that the liver聽operates聽with aging, which completely overturned the dogma. Everybody thought that because the liver can regenerate, it will just keep regenerating in perpetuity, and we聽wouldn't聽see aging in the liver. What we were able to show is there聽a lot聽of changes with aging in the liver.聽So,听we wanted to understand why these changes were important and whether we could actually target these changes with medications, so that the medications we were using to treat the other diseases might actually be effective.聽Fast聽forward聽a long way, we were trying to understand that and target particular compartments or particular cell types in the liver, and that's how nano medicines came into our lives, because nano medicines allow us to聽tune聽the particular place the drug is actually delivered to. We started to work with insulin because the聽great thing聽about insulin is that聽it's聽a聽lifesaving聽therapy for people living with diabetes. You know that the insulin is in and聽it's聽working if blood sugar聽drops,听it's聽almost like聽the perfect testing molecule. We started to play with insulin to see whether our nano medicines were delivering the cargo, the insulin,听to where they needed to be to elicit the responses we wanted to see. And bingo, it worked perfectly. Unfortunately, the dots we developed initially were very toxic, so we had some work to do. We started聽to work听补苍诲听work.聽I work with a very clever geriatrician and toxicologist.聽He and I聽have worked聽on this project for 25聽years聽we worked out the other day. We then brought in a very young, smart, enthusiastic post-doc who really started to even further the聽nano carriers we were dealing with, and then we were able to show that we were able to create an insulin that could get into the body using these nano carriers in the way we needed it to. But the聽holy聽grail with insulin is that you cannot take it currently unless聽it's聽injected. And one of the problems with the way that we inject insulin, it聽absolutely saves lives, and聽there's聽no way it聽doesn't. But the actual way we take insulin is not a fantastic way in that it has side effects of its own聽because we inject it into areas it聽doesn't聽need to go. What we then started to do is develop an oral way to deliver the drug. That was the next step in the process.聽So聽it was a very iterative process that got us there. There were 1000s of collaborators聽along the way;聽clinicians, scientists, physicists, all sorts of people helped us to get there. Then we started to spin the company out, and we currently have the drug being produced by a company that is also a partnership between the Sydney Local Health聽District,听the University of Sydney.聽So,听it's聽being manufactured here in Australia for clinical trial beginning in January 2025, so聽it's聽been a fantastic journey.

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听08:44

So聽you've聽got a different phase to where Michael's at. Tim, your story is a bit different because聽you're聽not working with a drug,听you're聽working with a product.聽

Chenyu Tim聽Wang聽聽08:52

Yes, so聽we are using artificial intelligence through MRI to聽identify聽those brain structure changes may聽indicate聽treatment efficacy if works or not. My background, 12 years ago, actually I was working with some more colleagues building the聽antenna, and聽never thought about it actually聽gets聽into the medical research. However, a lot of my skill sets about image聽processing聽and signal processing can really improve the accuracy in聽monitoring聽the brain structure change.聽So聽this is where I come in. Back in 2012,听I joined the聽Sydney聽Neuroimaging聽Analysis Centre聽and also聽Brain Mind聽Centre. With my mentor, we started building service to pharma, to this company their聽phase two to phase four clinical trials to run their imaging analysis to provide the evidence for their treatment and drugs. And along the way, up to 2018 we had the fortunate to go to聽CRC-P聽Grant. That is a fantastic grant and a put in聽industry University of Sydney,听I-MED聽radiology聽-聽several very聽important partnerships together, have the data,听resources,听and also聽expertise, all those key elements to deliver an AI medical device and to helping clinicians and helping the聽drug-to-drug聽discovery.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听10:14

And聽this聽device has now got FDA approval?

Chenyu Tim Wang聽10:18

Yes, we just got our FDA and the TGA聽approval聽actually.

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听10:22

I think for some people who are listening, the idea of the聽valley of聽death is something聽they're聽painfully aware of. Other people might not have heard of it before. Michael, can you give us a little definition?聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听10:31

The聽valley of聽death is that development period between where you have something that has been discovered, often through a university program, and the point at which聽you've聽got it in phase two clinical trials.聽There's聽millions and millions of dollars of research that occurs between that point and starting clinical trials, but governments聽don't聽tend to fund that research, so relying on the usual funding mechanisms is not really an option. There are some exceptions, but that's where you essentially have to take it out of the university and create a vehicle that allows you to jump over that valley of death and get it to the point where a pharmaceutical industry partner will come in and help in those latter stages of development, where things get really expensive.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听11:17

That's聽such a different skill set to what a researcher聽probably has聽had to have through their career to that point.聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听11:22

It's not for everyone, and I think that's something really important to note.聽When you're looking at what's the best vehicle for translating research out of a university, you have to consider what is the appetite and the energy of the researchers.聽If they want to stay doing academic research,听there's聽nothing wrong with that, but聽probably聽looking聽for a licensing arrangement early on is the best approach, where you find a company that wants to take the technology and develop it. But聽I actually think that the more success stories聽come when a researcher is willing to jump in and become an entrepreneur and try and take the program forward, because it keeps that connection. It keeps the connection with the institution where the technology was discovered and that early development went on, and it keeps someone heavily involved in the program that has deep knowledge in the technology.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听12:12

It is something that sort of, in my reporting, I feel like I hear a lot about a lot of discovery happening in Australia, and then a lot of聽commercialisation聽happening overseas. Tim, why does this happen? What are we not getting in Australia that other places are doing?

Chenyu Tim聽Wang聽聽12:27

Speaking for medical聽device聽or like AI space, I feel, for example, I went to Silicon Valley this March, and I can feel the vibes about how academics, venture聽capitals聽and industries, they really tied up聽very close. There聽are聽tremendous聽opportunity聽at聽almost every聽single聽day聽could have found the places that people talk about ideas. They're matching the technology advancement and market requirement together very well, and聽also聽they have a lot of VCs behind that is hunting for those ideas.聽So聽this is the part when I was there, comparing to when I was here, when聽I'm聽here in Sydney.聽I'm聽sure聽there's聽a lot of places like here in Sydney, but just as not聽as much聽strong聽that聽culture in data space,听I think this聽is聽probably what聽I feel.聽I'm聽not聽saying like聽we're聽competing with the Silicon Valley. Of course,听that's聽just the聽centre聽of a lot of聽the innovations聽there. But we聽probably also,听I think we聽needed to聽identify聽the uniqueness in Australia and what is our strength. And we聽can,听speaking聽from the AI point of view, and we can push in our space聽the聽position in this innovation process.聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听13:38

I think things聽are changing though.聽When I started out on this journey trying to聽co-found聽Konoxis聽Therapeutics, I got a mixture of advice.聽The more pessimistic was聽along the lines of聽your committing career suicide, just focus on publishing good papers and getting an聽NHMRC and聽ARC聽grants. Australia聽doesn't聽do research translation,听investors in Australia just focus on flipping houses and investing in mining.聽I'm聽proud to say that up until our most recent financing round, which we just closed recently, every single investor in聽Konoxis聽Therapeutics was an Australian investor. We now have one US-based investor, and we brought聽them on聽not out of necessity, but out of choice, because they bring a lot of expertise to the program that's going to be really valuable to us, and a lot of connections into the US market. You absolutely can produce a startup company in Australia that聽remains聽an Australian company through critical stages of development.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听14:33

Did you get that sort of pushback聽as well when聽you were聽looking at going聽into聽commercialisation?

痴颈肠迟辞谤颈补听颁辞驳驳别谤听听14:38

I think academics by nature are quite risk averse, I would say. And聽I think the whole聽publish聽perish sort of mentality is a difficult one to shift, but not really. I think it's actually changed a lot probably since聽Konoxis聽really first started.聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听14:52

I聽don't聽think聽I'd聽get that advice聽now.聽

痴颈肠迟辞谤颈补听颁辞驳驳别谤听听14:54

No, I聽don't聽think聽you'd聽get it at all. And聽I think the university聽has a lot of programs now,听PERIscope聽being one of them, there are many. And there are biotech incubators and things that are coming up in Australia.聽So聽I think actually the landscape聽is really changing in Australia. And I think that our drug will initially go to market in Australia. I think聽it's聽changed, and I think that聽there's聽a very different聽appetite. I think that聽it's being聽driven from both the bottom and the top.聽There's聽a push in both directions.聽And I think universities are actually getting better at getting things out.聽Certainly,听I've聽noticed a real change in our聽initial聽dealings to how聽it's聽dealt with now in university sectors.聽And I think that we are finally starting to change, which is a really good thing.聽But no, I聽don't聽think we ever really got that advice.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听15:38

That's聽probably a聽good thing.聽I am interested in a minute to talk about the role of universities, because聽they're聽obviously super critical to this pipeline. But Vic,听I'm聽really interested:聽in your experience of obviously, if聽you're聽working in the pharmaceutical space聽you end up necessarily working with pharmaceutical companies, with that industry, the聽pros聽and cons that聽you've聽come across along the way?聽

痴颈肠迟辞谤颈补听颁辞驳驳别谤听听15:58

Yeah, so coming back to the idea that academics are quite risk averse,听I think that obviously pharmaceutical companies聽operate聽from聽a very different聽operating model.聽And understanding, connecting,听and finding a way to navigate that is actually critical in the very first stages, because they come from a profit-driven rather than necessarily a聽need basis or necessarily a patient perspective.聽So聽I think understanding that from the outset is really important. You really need to have a network, and you really need to have people that are going to help you and translate along the way, because you are learning a new skill, you're聽learning a new language. But I think the聽great thing聽about聽the pharmaceutical聽companies is that they are willing to invest in research. A lot of them are now not doing research in聽house.聽They're聽doing it via universities or other entities. The SBA聽(Sydney Biomedical Accelerator), I聽think聽is going to be a fantastic opportunity for that.聽So聽I think聽they're聽probably the聽things that I would think are important when thinking about working with聽the pharmaceutical聽companies.聽What's聽their market, and how can you convince them that this is a great tool for them?聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听17:03

Tim on AI, it feels like such a buzzword at the moment.聽Everyone knows that聽it's聽the thing聽that's聽on the horizon. Has that helped, or is it a saturated market?聽

Chenyu Tim聽Wang聽聽17:12

I think far from saturating, I think so聽much聽things just聽happening聽every single day. For example, that technology we developed five years ago, we thought聽that聽is definitely the state of聽the art. But until now, you have a lot of transformer models,听ChatGPT, even聽ChatGPT is evolving every single day. There聽are聽still聽a great聽potential for it to聽grow. From my point of view, the value of AI聽hasn't聽been really聽recognised聽this potential.聽Personally,听I think there聽are still quite a lot of things to grow,听absolutely. And the second part about AI is also about a lot of times people see AI, the people聽I聽chatter with see AI聽is聽like a new web application or mobile application that are novel ideas. You could design the business ideas聽they're聽around it to build it.聽But聽actually,听AI I聽see聽is more like an infrastructure, a聽tool聽that can translate your current workflow.聽It鈥檚聽not necessarily needed to be a new industry, but there聽is聽tremendous opportunities in drug discovery, for example, because it has the capability to really transforming the process, complicated data analysis process that聽actually can聽really accelerate a lot of things. For example, when I was at Nvidia GTC conference,听the drug聽discovery聽is聽one of the major聽theme. People talk about it the聽way of how聽it can聽pushing,听accelerating聽the process.聽I think definitely the space to watch.聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听18:45

Think聽a good example of how AI is accelerating drug discovery and drug development comes from work that my聽team is聽doing at the Brain and Mind聽Centre. We and is one of the reasons we've been able to accelerate the development program so quickly with KNX100 and with some earlier stage programs we're working on, we've used AI to basically automate the analysis of massive amounts of data that we're collecting from our disease models and data that would have taken two researchers working full time for six months, we can now process by putting it through our high performance computer on聽a聽Thursday night, and the date will be there ready the next morning.聽So聽the聽throughput that聽that has allowed us to work with is just astronomical.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听19:29

Do you think聽that's聽going to create more competition for spinning up聽companies聽that sort of thing? Or is that good?聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听19:36

I hope so.聽It鈥檚聽a good thing, you聽know,听we聽need聽more, particularly in areas of unmet need.聽That's聽where we should be working as universities and as small聽biotechs聽coming out of universities. We聽shouldn't聽be trying to compete with Big Pharma in the areas where they already have massive programs and there's tons of work going聽on聽in my opinion.聽I think we should be working in the areas where there is a huge unmet need, because unlike big pharmaceutical companies, we can be driven,听first and foremost聽by our potential to have impact in those areas of unmet need.聽

Chenyu Tim聽Wang聽聽20:06

Yeah, we're just about to echo with another story, because when I actually started at聽the聽Brian聽and Mind Centre,听I was an聽imaging analyst, so I聽performing聽drawing all those pathologies on the brain to perform accurate management for clinical trials. Some of the cases聽took me like three days to do.聽So聽I was saying, part of my motivation to聽pushing聽the AI research is actually trying to be lazy.聽聽It's聽always the聽engineers,听you really聽don't聽want to do those repetitive tasks.聽I think that聽is what AI could do as well to help radiologists and neurologists, because you聽don't聽have to go through this.聽A聽lot of the slices of the brain to聽comparing, oh, there is the change or not, because that can be replaced by AI.聽So that is actually the first model we developed in our team.聽Now every single聽cases聽will take less than three seconds for the automatic聽perform聽the task I used to do聽require聽me three days. So that聽is can save聽me a lot of聽time to聽pushing a lot of聽new ideas,听thinking more rather than doing those repetitive tasks.聽I think that聽is what聽very important聽AI could do today to help聽assisted聽those process.聽

Tegan Taylor聽聽21:15

We talked a bit about the barriers, and we've talked a lot about the opportunities. What I'd love to get into is what models we can look to as places that are doing something really well. Vic, what sort of inspires you, when you look at in terms of a model?聽

Victoria Cogger聽聽21:29

What inspires me? I think I would say everyone on this stage is inspired to make a difference in people's lives.聽So聽I think聽that's聽probably the聽biggest driver for me as a researcher and as somebody聽that's聽bringing something to聽market. But I think there are lots of excellent models that we can look to that are not necessarily in the medical research field, and there's all sorts of agricultural models and all of those sorts of things that are driving agriculture and things forward in ways that I don't think we have adopted yet. I guess the thing that I would say is other聽countries,听America has some excellent ways in which they spin things out. Genentech is a really聽a great聽example.聽We were talking earlier about Google's apparently a fantastic place to work, but the CEO actually thinks it's terrible.聽Yeah, the former CEO because of the work-life balance issues.聽So聽Genentech聽I聽think聽is a place that's really fantastic.聽You've聽also got places like the聽Crick in the UK that I think is聽a really excellent聽example of how synergistic research can happen聽in with聽industry at the same place. And I think things where we can have academics working with industry, working with patients, working with each other, I think is also very important,听the kind of models that we need to be seeing.聽So very multidisciplinary, very transdisciplinary, and those sorts of things that I think places like the SBA are really going to start to bring home to Australia.聽

Tegan Taylor聽聽22:45

I think about tech and that Silicon Valley culture as being very agile, very start up, very looking to the future and quite quick at being able to get something off the ground. What can we learn from tech when it comes to medical innovations?聽

Chenyu Tim Wang聽聽23:00

So聽this actually, I聽wanted to link back to the聽death聽valley聽aspect we talked about earlier. I聽identify聽there is聽actually two聽death聽valley聽from my own story. One is聽definitely聽sometimes we're pushing the technology advancement for the sake of technology advancement.聽Sometimes聽it's聽not necessary, or the market聽hasn't聽been ready for it.聽So聽once you have the tech, for example, there are hundreds of 1000s聽of聽papers published every single day about artificial intelligence to apply that to different fields. And sometimes those technologies聽not necessarily the聽market is聽ready for it.聽That's聽needed desperately, so you can find a聽funding聽and you can accelerate over that debt value. So that is one aspect.聽What we could learn from that is definitely to matching the market聽needs,听to understand what is currently required actually better people than matching with the technology for advancement.聽So not just to focus on聽to produce聽the most sophisticated AI models, but聽it's聽actually to聽explore,听鈥渙kay, how much this actually can help people who could benefit that most鈥�.聽And most importantly, who will pay for聽it.聽So聽I think聽that聽is聽very important聽to attract聽the interest聽from a VC, post the government funding,听post-research funding can get you through that debt valley,听that is one.聽Second聽one is also it has been another聽very challenging聽for medical聽device聽this type of space is that, because we require TGA FDA approval to sell it, right? But the process聽is actually,听like聽for our experience聽I'm聽not saying聽it's聽slow for TGA,听it's聽about 14 months took us from we聽submit聽to get approval. FDA is much faster.聽It's聽about, I think, seven months per experience.聽So once your grants stop there, how聽you聽get through that regulatory phase and start generating income?聽And also, when you start talking to people, you聽have to聽wait for that license to聽happening, then you can start generating income to get you through the market聽phase. For our example, we definitely have聽trying聽to diversify the income stream.聽For example, supporting聽it through multiple different collaboration models.聽So essentially,听a聽lot of those innovations already get embedded in some of the research projects or聽the industry聽project partnerships, to聽get out聽through that phase, through that valley. So聽that's聽our experience.聽

Tegan Taylor聽聽25:34

Michael, I'm interested to get your take on the role,听all of you actually,听on the role of universities because that's the setting that we're in tonight, and what unis can be doing at all different layers of their structure to be enabling this, these innovations.聽

Michael Bowen聽聽25:49

Yeah聽look, universities are absolutely critical.聽They're聽the engine rooms of discovery and innovation in areas of unmet need. But universities and the small biotech companies like聽Konoxis聽that are often spun out of university programs聽can't聽do it alone. And going back to this idea of what programs can really聽facilitate聽drug discovery and drug development in areas of unmet need, I love programs that get universities, industry,听and government working together.聽Because one of the biggest barriers is the cost of drug development.聽So聽the tough聽Centre聽for聽Drug聽Development puts the current dollar value of getting a new drug to market at聽$2.6聽billion聽dollars.聽That's more than double the combined cost of the budget for all four Marvel Avengers movies.

Tegan Taylor聽聽26:37

Finally, a metric I understand.

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听26:39

Now,听what happens when something gets so expensive is larger聽organisations聽like big pharma companies can get risk averse, and they can聽try and聽back safe bets. Now, in the movie industry, that might mean more superhero movies than some of us, but in drug discovery and drug development, that means no or limited activity in these areas of unmet need.聽So聽programs that can get government investing to get it to a point where聽big聽pharma gets interested are so important, and an example of that is in one of our聽Konoxis聽clinical programs targeting the treatment of opioid use disorder.聽So聽we're聽in clinical stage now, and聽that's聽really been聽facilitated聽through significant funding from the US NIH.聽So聽they have this initiative called the helping end addiction long-term or聽HEAL Initiative, which was set up in response to the opioid crisis in the US. Some of you may have heard of the opioid crisis, opioid聽overdose is now the number one cause of death amongst聽18 to 45 year olds聽in the United States. These are people in their聽prime,听they聽shouldn't聽be dying.聽In Australia, it kills more people each year than car accidents.聽There's聽only five unique substances approved for treating opioid use聽disorder. When we took 100 into first in-human clinical trials two years ago, it was the only novel chemical entity anywhere on the planet in development for opioid use disorder. And just to put that in perspective,听there's聽over 3300 compounds in clinical development for the treatment of cancer, so聽huge聽disparity there.聽I'm聽not saying聽that's聽bad,听that's聽great.聽That's聽what we need in all these other areas as well. Now fast forward two years, and there are now 17 clinical programs for treating opioid use disorder, eight for novel chemical entities like KNX100. And聽that's聽only been possible because of this聽multi-billion聽dollar聽investment from the US government into the聽HEAL聽Initiative, which is聽backing pretty much every single one of these programs. Now some of the big pharmaceutical companies are starting to get interested, because聽it's聽over that valley of death.聽It's聽been聽de-risked, and when聽you're聽working in these areas that are聽deemed聽to be聽more risky,听you've聽got to get them further along before you get those partners involved.

痴颈肠迟辞谤颈补听颁辞驳驳别谤听听28:43

Yeah, I was just thinking about the valley of death in terms of getting partners involved, which聽has聽been the opposite of our experience. We聽didn't聽have that sort of valley of death in the same way, and聽had been successful in getting translational, targeted research acceleration support from the government, MRFF support.聽So聽we've聽been able to keep it going until we were able to attract the venture capitalist support that聽we've聽recently gained. I think that in terms of doing areas of unmet need, I think it's about us convincing people who are suffering those conditions to actually speak to the people that they need to;聽the government representatives, through their doctors, through their clinicians, and agitate from that direction as well.聽So聽I think absolutely we聽need government partnership, university partnership, but we also need the people that are suffering from these diseases, their聽carers听补苍诲听all of聽those sorts of things, to also be agitating in that direction. Because I think without that, we're not going to see the continued support from governments and also from the patients themselves, and potentially finding other people to contribute to the development of these drugs in that way, rather than just relying on the venture capitalists or the industry or the government.聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听29:54

And getting involved in clinical聽trials, once聽it gets to that stage.聽At that point, the patients become聽partners,听partners in the development in a very聽real way.聽And a lot of the time it's challenging to develop compounds once they get to the clinical stage, because it's really hard and slow to recruit for clinical trials in certain areas.聽So,听if you see a clinical trial and you know someone who might be a good fit for it, encourage them to聽look into聽it and learn more.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听30:22

Tim, you were nodding furiously.聽

Chenyu Tim聽Wang聽聽30:26

Yes聽for us, I think important聽at the University of Sydney, at a university environment, is really to have that partnership, I聽think聽is聽basically the聽partner can help you to foresee all the risks. And that is not only about just聽research聽industry, but I think聽it's聽also聽very important聽for the venture capitals, the investments that are more than just the聽NHMRC ARC fundings, to come to help you to foresee the risks.聽Yeah.

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听30:55

I will聽take聽some questions from the audience now, and the first one, I聽think聽is a聽really great聽one for the people that we have in the room tonight. Are there opportunities for small investors? We hear about big numbers. What are the opportunities for smaller investors?聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听31:08

Yes, absolutely.聽Particularly in the early stages, smaller investors can be absolutely critical.聽And聽certainly聽with聽Kanoxis, we had聽a number of聽smaller individual investors who got on board in those聽early stages聽and helped us get over the line in our first financing round, and they were so important.聽

罢别驳补苍听罢补测濒辞谤听听31:26

So聽before we close tonight, for the people who are listening right now who are inspired by this within their realm of influence, what can they do?聽聽

Chenyu Tim聽Wang聽聽31:34

Just聽to do聽it.聽Stop thinking, just聽to do聽it. You want to believe how many actually聽the normal聽ideas. I speak with a lot of startup聽people聽who聽have聽new ideas, but think聽too much, and聽the聽engineering way is working on it, just do it,听and fix the problem on the way. And at least聽this聽will lead聽somewhere聽and you gain that experience. And聽of course聽very important聽actually,听in this process to go to聽those successful case聽for partnership, for advice.聽That's聽of course important, but for me, just to do it,听I think this聽is聽probably one聽of the most important聽thing.

惭补谤办听厂肠辞迟迟听听32:09

That's聽neuroimaging scientist and engineer Chenyu Tim Wang, the聽co-founder聽and COO of the Sydney聽Neuroimaging Analysis Centre. You also heard from Victoria Cogger, the director of the Anzac Research Institute at Concord聽hospital, and Michael Bowen, the聽co-founder聽and Chief Scientific Officer of聽Konoxis聽Therapeutics.聽聽If you want to dive deeper into the research, Michael mentioned on America's opioid crisis, he joined聽a previous聽episode of聽The聽Solutionist to discuss聽a new approach聽to addiction treatment.聽

惭颈肠丑补别濒听叠辞飞别苍听听32:44

If it was聽just about doing聽a lot of something, then聽we'd聽all be聽addicted to聽toothpaste.聽So,听it's聽certainly not about that.聽It's聽about having a strong, often uncontrollable urge to use a substance or engage in a behavior聽that's聽harmful despite negative consequences.

惭补谤办听厂肠辞迟迟听听33:01

You can listen to that episode of聽The聽Solutionists right now. And make sure聽you're聽following the聽show聽so you聽don't聽miss an episode. And for more great ideas from the University of Sydney, and to hear the full聽hour-long聽version of this public conversation, visit the Sydney ideas website. We put a link in the show notes.聽The Solutionists is a podcast from the University of Sydney, produced by聽Deadset聽Studios.聽

The Solutionists is a podcast from the University of Sydney, produced by . Keep up to date with The Solutionists by following @sydney_uni on and , and @sydney.edu.au on .

This conversation is originally from a live public talks event, presented by聽Sydney Ideas聽鈥� the University of Sydney鈥檚 flagship public talks program.聽You can hear the full hour-long version of this public conversation聽here.

Listen to Michael Bowen鈥檚聽previous聽episode of The Solutionists about America鈥檚 opioid crisis聽here.

This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. For thousands of years, across innumerable generations, knowledge has been taught,听shared聽and exchanged here. We pay respect to elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.